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In other weekend news

Ha! Ha! Stink sucksToledo skunked, Elon stanked and Lil ‘Sammy stuttered. The Stink had no problem with the ‘Whee. And Furple and Wooford were just beat down by some big boys. Which means three weeks in, the SoCon is only the fourth strongest FCS league in the land. Now excuse us while we go play in traffic.

THERE’S JOY IN ‘NOOGA-VILLE. First D1 road win in 18 tries.


  1. Boogieman

    September 21, 2009 at 5:06 am

    Here we go again, MSU did the same thing before coming to ASU, I bet all Samford has done over the past 2 weeks is work on a game plan. Arggg he we go again. Hopefully the focus will come back.

  2. mtdrago

    September 21, 2009 at 5:49 am

    mtdrago’s FCS Top 25

    1 Richmond (123)
    2 Villanova (13)
    3 UNI (6)
    4 Montana (1)
    5 William & Mary (2)
    6 New Hampshire (1)
    7 James Madision
    8 McNesse St (1)
    9 S. Illinois
    10 Appalachian State
    11 Weber St
    12 Central Arkansas
    13 SC St (1)
    14 UMass
    15 SD St
    16 Elon
    17 Cal Poly
    18 Wofford
    19 Eastern Washington
    20 Eastern Kentucky
    21 Holy Cross
    22 Texas St
    23 Jacksonville St
    24 E. Illinois
    25 Liberty

    Not Much changes as only Maine and Harvard loss games that were against same Division.

    Richmond shoutout Hofstra 47-0. Well that makes 12 wins in a row. This is getting very old. Next up is VMI which might be worst than Hofstra. Someone Please beat the Spiders.

    Montana moves to their usually 4-0, but they have not played anybody. They also do not play a FBS team this year. I wish Montana would play a tougher schedule.

    McNesse St kills a nobody named Savannah St 56-0. It seems like their near miss of D2 Henderson St is over. But do not forget about Central Arkansas.

    App St pratices for a must win against Samford. Also, parties while watching Elon get destroyed by Wake Forest 35-7. App St Remebers their battles against Wake Forest as their career record is 7-13-1. More to come on Elon.

    Central Arkansas wins easily against an unknown FBS team named Western Kentucky. Remeber, this is Central Arkansas last year as an Expansion FCS team out of D2. I am not sure why Western Kentucky is not in the FCS. It appears that any Top 25 FCS team could beat Western Kentucky on any given night. Western Kentucky Record against FBS schools this decade is now 1-24. There only win is against Middle Tennesse State. I seem to remeber Western Kentucky winning the FCS Champion in 2002. Well those days seem to be long over.

    South Carolina State continues to get the unkown 1 first place vote. I still asking who??????? They probably have no second, third, or even fourth place votes.

    Can UMass be the unbelieve six CAA playoff team of 2009?

    The South Dakota JackRabbits are winning watch out!!!!

    Now, on Elon. Well, what can I say. I told you sooooo. You all should have listened. Look it up if you dare Elon has not won a single high class, important game in a very long time maybe even never and I do mean at any Divisional Level of Football. Comment: Scoot Riddle looks good, but wait he is not only the Quarterback he is also the main Punter. This must mean Elon is not very deep.

    Wofford losses 44-14 to Wisconsin. Is Wofford a playoff team this year???

    Remeber Eastern Washington is suspended from Playoffs.

    Remeber Jacksonville St is suspended from Playoffs.

    Can Liberty make a run at the playoffs this year??? Will they have to wait for the automatic Big South bid in 2010????

    Big, Big, Big comeback for The OLD DOMINION MONARCHS 28-27 OVER JACKSONVILLE. ODU now 3-0. When will ODU get some repesct and get some Points in the FCS poll???? This could happen very soon if they continue to win. Next up 1-2 Monmouth.

  3. DRM

    September 21, 2009 at 5:49 am

    That was exactly my thought. But we will have had two weeks to prepare for Samford, too, so there will be absolutely no excuse if we don't perform better on defense (and in the kicking game) than we did against McNeese. Not that there was any excuse for our McNeese performance.

    Wofford loses by 30 to Wisconsin; Furman loses by 40 to Missouri; Elon loses by 28 to Wake; GaSo struggles past Albany, gets blitzed by a better-than-most-people-think SD State team, and handles WCU by 24; Samford has wins against Jacksonville and Miles, plus a four-point loss to UCF. And ASU is 0-2. Fourth best FCS league? Even that may be a stretch.

  4. mtdrago

    September 21, 2009 at 5:51 am

    Present Playoff Picture by mtdrago.

    Note some suprise. Remeber some of the following teams happen to lead there Respected Conferences. Also, Remeber the first round is usually keep Regional. Things will change as the year goes on.

    E. Kentucy at Richmond
    Florida A&M at McNeese St
    App St at W&M
    South Dakota St at Montana
    Weber St at UNI
    S. Illinois at New Hampshire
    Georgia Southern at JMU
    Holy Cross at Villanova

    I do have South Dakota State beating Montana. I do have App St beating William and Mary. I do have a home game for App St against South Dakota State. I am sorry I do have Richmond beating App St at Richomd in the Semi-Finals. I hate to say it, but right now they are the better team. I see Richmond facing a good UNI team. I have Richmond beating UNI in a good game. Somebody please beat Richmond.

  5. Jason

    September 21, 2009 at 6:23 am

    I say we wait 'til the end of the season to determine the National Champion. It's been 3 weeks of a 12 week season. Yes, Richmond beat Duke and W&M beat Virginia…but we beat Michigan and lost AT HOME to GSU and to Wofford. It's a long season….and I still have faith!

    Remember, we held ECU to 56yrds in the 2nd half…we have a GREAT defense this year!

    Armanti can score on ANYBODY…we have a GREAT offense this year! And if Armanti gets hurt, we have a 2nd string guy that is a STUD!

    GO APPS!

  6. appfanmidwest

    September 21, 2009 at 6:38 am

    All I can say is the SoCon freaking sucks! We need to destroy all SoCon teams or we will get pounded in the playoffs because the SoCon is the bottom of the barrell this year.

    SoCon= bridle for App State

    Create the vision and they will come. Go FBS now!

  7. appirishmen

    September 21, 2009 at 6:45 am

    mtdrago…..yes UR beat Duke and yes W@M beat VA….but Duke sucks and VA sucks also. those wins are crap. yes they are over FBS teams but they are bottom tear teams and any top level/ maybe mid level FCS team can beat them. i mean Duke only beat army and VA lost to southern miss. i agree with Jason. hold off on the playoff stuff untill like 3 weeks till the end of the season. if App wins out…i say we have a good shot at a NC. about as good as anyone. i have a feeling UR will lose one game. the CAA has a crap load of teams and most are good.

    lets go APPs and i hope you can play d now!!!

  8. Gwaltineer

    September 21, 2009 at 6:46 am

    0-2. any win against any team is a step in the right direction.

  9. appirishmen

    September 21, 2009 at 6:47 am

    appfanmidwest…..lets not go FBS. im tired of everyone saying that. we are good where we are here. if we move up it will be to a crap conference and will never have a shot at a NC just some crap no name bowl. we have success at the FCS level and at least have a shot at winning a NC.

  10. appfanmidwest

    September 21, 2009 at 7:44 am

    You don't build the kind of facilities we have with the vision of staying where we are. What is so great about where we are?? No one really cares about an FCS national championship anyway. It gets no press coverage and has very little credability on the national football stage.

    More importantly, we have no REAL competition. We are playing DOWN to the competition, not playing UP as we should be.

    If we want to stay where we are, then we just wasted millions of dollars on rennovations.

  11. Rufus

    September 21, 2009 at 8:03 am

    I think Mtdrago wants his own blog but is test driving it on the appfan forum……

  12. Michael

    September 21, 2009 at 8:11 am

    Oh my gosh!

    Can we save the "Let's go FBS!" stuff for the offseason, please?

    We're not going FBS this season or next or the one after, so let's focus on the season at hand for now. Those of you who are so obsessed with going FBS, and miserable for it, don't drag the rest of us down b/c of it.

  13. Gwaltineer

    September 21, 2009 at 8:32 am

    midwest, I think Marshall and Troy are accepting fans, ticket holders, and athletic donations. if you don't care abotu 1-AA football, there's the door.

  14. Appnaysayer

    September 21, 2009 at 8:41 am

    Ouch! And I'd add that if folks are going to "talk" about going FBS, now–after two straight losses, amid serious questions about our future as a playoff team–might not be the most opportune time.

  15. jonmac

    September 21, 2009 at 8:59 am

    Rufus, I was gonna say the same thing. Great minds must think alike.
    Gwalt, I get your point but I don't think we need to be running fans off. He just wants what he thinks is best for us.
    And I agree that we should leave that discussion for the offseason.

  16. Joe

    September 21, 2009 at 9:46 am

    If mtdrago wants to run his own blog, he better start writing in a manner than people can comprehend…

  17. Dan

    September 21, 2009 at 9:49 am

    nicely done, Joe.

  18. Keith

    September 21, 2009 at 10:22 am

    ok…easy on mtdrago. He has a lot of good information in his posts that could really help someone understand how rankings and playoff selections are made. However,I completely agree that spellcheck and proofreading should be added to his posts.

    Wow how the league has fallen. Two years ago I could have made a great arguement for the SoCon to be the best FCS conference in the country. Games are played for a reason and the SoCon has taken a beating this year.

  19. Dan

    September 21, 2009 at 10:29 am

    everything goes in cycles, happens that this is a down year for the SoCon, it'll come back around soon enough.

  20. DRM

    September 21, 2009 at 10:44 am

    I actually enjoy the FBS versus FCS debate. 'Cause my side always wins.

  21. clayton

    September 21, 2009 at 10:58 am

    Hey Midwest, you know how when you talk on a walkie talkie and you're supposed to say "over" when you're done talking?

    Well, I have no idea if you're finished with the post until they come to the vision. Just something to remember, trying to help here. Your posts rival Drago's.

  22. appfanmidwest

    September 21, 2009 at 5:40 pm

    Create the vision and they will come.

    The SoCon still sucks.

  23. clayton

    September 22, 2009 at 1:42 am

    I didn't hear the 2nd part. I thought the statement was done.

  24. appfanmidwest

    September 22, 2009 at 3:39 am


    Just for you…

    The SoCon still Sucks!

    Create the vision and they will come (over).

  25. Joe

    September 22, 2009 at 5:12 am

    I love how appfanmidwest is ignoring every person who asks where the money comes from to boost the athletics budget when the university is already have to cut jobs and lower pay..

  26. Dan

    September 22, 2009 at 5:27 am

    Joe, stop mucking up the vision with these so called "real world" problems.

  27. jonmac

    September 22, 2009 at 5:36 am

    Joe, I'm not appfanmidwest, but I'll take a stab. What we have to understand is that for the first few years we will struggle to compete because it will take that long for the money to start coming. It will come from many sources. Of course, donations will have to increase. Ticket prices will increase, which will be somewhat worth it when you consider that we will no longer have to schedule teams such as NCCU, Presbyterian, Jacksonville, LRU, etc. It shouldn't be that big a deal to pay more to see what should be better football (I know that's debatable.) OOC FBS teams will pay us more to play them. I don't have the stats on that but it has been mentioned on here and the MMB several times that big time FBS/BCS teams pay more for FBS/BCS teams than they do FCS teams. There will be an increase in minimum Yosef donations for each level, the perks will cost more. Yes, mostly, the fans will be counted to fund the increase in budget. But we should also get more regional and national TV coverage which would also bring in more money. Not all of these are necessarily positives but I've attempted to be non-biased in what I perceive are some of the places that the money will come from. As has been mentioned, now, in the current economy, is not the right time to make the changes that will cost the fans more but now is also not the time that a move can take place. It is at least 2 years away. But now is the time to plan in order to be ready to make the move when the time is right and we are actually able. It will make no difference to me whether we stay FCS or move to FBS as I will still be an App fan and will support the program in any way I am able.

  28. Joe

    September 22, 2009 at 5:37 am

    Very true Dan.. who cares, its just money anyway right? Let's just start getting into even more debt by doing things that are not needed, then file for bankruptcy.. sounds like a solid plan.. I mean, it worked for GM!!!

  29. Dan

    September 22, 2009 at 5:44 am

    And half the homeowners in this country…

  30. Joe

    September 22, 2009 at 5:53 am

    "Of course, donations will have to increase. Ticket prices will increase"

    So will fans pay more when they are still losing their jobs?

    "It shouldn’t be that big a deal to pay more to see what should be better football (I know that’s debatable.)"

    Very debatable.. it shouldn't be a problem, but who is to say they actually will pay more when we're playing teams like FIU and Florida Atlantic (both of which are not much better, if better at all, than Wofford, Elon, etc)

    "OOC FBS teams will pay us more to play them. I don’t have the stats on that but it has been mentioned on here and the MMB several times that big time FBS/BCS teams pay more for FBS/BCS teams than they do FCS teams."

    Correct, but we will also have to pay more to get OOC FBS teams to come to us.. unless you're suggesting all our OOC FBS games are away — which kind of goes against a main reason for going FBS right?

    "There will be an increase in minimum Yosef donations for each level, the perks will cost more. Yes, mostly, the fans will be counted to fund the increase in budget."

    Again, can that happen when people are still losing their jobs?

    "But we should also get more regional and national TV coverage which would also bring in more money."

    Again, that should word.. unless there is a DEFINITE that we would get more TV coverage, this is a moot point.

    "It will make no difference to me whether we stay FCS or move to FBS as I will still be an App fan and will support the program in any way I am able."

    Amen to that.. That is another thing that worries me about being a middle of the road team, in a weak FBS conference.. our attendance and support more than DOUBLED once we started winning championships.. if we start doing poor, even against "better" competition, how many of those fans will stay. Of course, there will be those who have and always will bleed black and gold, but the bandwagoners will be gone.

    All in all, moving up to FBS eventually would be good, but to do it within the next 5-10 years just does not seem reasonable unless there is an extremely wealthy alum that wants to make a HUGE donation EVERY year.. it is just not feasible at this point

  31. asu7

    September 22, 2009 at 6:04 am

    Meanwhile …

    We should not look at an FCS vs FBS win to determine who is strong and who is not …

    We were suppose to go undefeated in 2007 but gaso and waffles had different plans …

    Gaso stopped our home winning streak that year. UR and bill and mary will get beat this year. The CAA is tougher than nails and will beat up on each other. No one will go undefeated in the CAA this year so all is ok. We need to step off the ledge until Saturday. If we screw up Saturday then we can all go back on suicide watch.

  32. Dan

    September 22, 2009 at 6:09 am

    Good points Joe, I would also add that I think it's a little unrealistic to expect fans to pay higher Yosef dues to watch a team lose a lot of games. If we were to move up to FBS, you could probably expect our attendance figures to drop back to pre-three peat levels.

  33. Michael

    September 22, 2009 at 6:11 am

    "Waffles"–great nickname for Wofford, asu7!

    Let me make sure I got all the SoCon nicknames straight…
    Samford = Lil' Sammy
    Chattanooga = Nooga = Dirty Noooga
    Georgia Southern = The Stink
    The Citadel = El Cid
    Furman = Furple
    Western = The Whee
    (As of yesterday) Wofford = Waffles

    We just need one for Elon. How about "N.Y.C., N.Y.," as in "Next Year's Champion, Next Year!"

  34. DRM

    September 22, 2009 at 6:44 am

    LR is a U?

  35. asu7

    September 22, 2009 at 7:04 am

    Furple has several good nicknames … purple pansy palamuffins is one of my favs.

    Waffles can also be ankle biters …

    Elon = E Loan

    Da whee has several too … ccc (lowercase) cullowhee community college … west carolina (lowercase) … cbc (lowercase) cherokee boys club … ucla (lowercase) university of cullowhee left of asheville

    Any reference to ccc needs to be lowercase in my book.

  36. jonmac

    September 22, 2009 at 7:58 am

    Yes, DRM, believe it or not, LR is a U.

    Joe, I was simply stating where the money will be coming from. Who knows what things will be like in 3-4 years? The economy is starting to turn back around. It's not booming but it's improving. Personally, I would expect Yosef donors to contribute based on their desire for the program to succeed rather than how much we're winning. That will be a major obstacle to overcome if and when we do move to FBS. I agree that the time is not right, right now but preparation is key and discussions are healthy. It will not be an overnight decision when it is made. And I believe, like appfanmidwest, the preparation has begun.
    To address your concern with ticket prices increasing, ECU fans certainly don't mind paying $35 to see CUSA teams play. I don't foresee us having to worry about playing the likes of FIU and FAU.

  37. Joe

    September 22, 2009 at 8:25 am

    "Personally, I would expect Yosef donors to contribute based on their desire for the program to succeed rather than how much we’re winning."

    I agree 100% but do all donors? I mean, personally, i probably should not have given any this year, but because I want the program and university to succeed, I held back on other purchases so I could afford to donate more. However, I also don't think its coincidence that our giving went up when we started to win more.. there is a direct correlation with winning and giving (maybe sad, but its the truth)

    I definitely think the preparation has begun (hence the facilities), but to say that we NEED to go to FBS (like appmidwest is saying) is not true. Is it a future adaptation the university takes? It seems like it. Will the athletics program falter if we don't? Highly doubt it.

    Yes, ECU does charge $35 for tickets and get a good sized crowd. What was the price for tickets previously though? I am not from NC, so I am not familiar with the history of ECU athletics. But my guess, is that ticket has always been more than App tickets.

    Again, I am not saying App should never move up, but to even think about doing it right now and saying its a necessity is ignorant of the consequences that would ultimately occur. I am all for growth, but do it properly!

  38. Dan

    September 22, 2009 at 8:26 am

    to little to late Joe, you're still fired from midwest's company.

  39. jonmac

    September 22, 2009 at 9:09 am

    I agree with you Joe. I think the Athletic Dept. is doing it properly. And appfanmidwest's comment are, imo, primarily rhetoric because we, of course, can't do it "now". I think it's time for the argument of whether or not we should move to FBS to change to discussions of what we need to do to make the move successful. I don't know what Boise State's budget was like before their move but I imagine it was, at least somewhat, similar to ours although I agree some of their circumstances were/are different as far as number of D-I schools in their state. None of us need to be putting down other App fans because of the desire to either stay FCS or move to FBS(not saying you are, btw, just saying). We all want what we think is best for the Apps, that just seems to differ among us somewhat. I personally believe the move is possible and feasible and that we will compete at whatever level we are.

  40. DRM

    September 22, 2009 at 10:33 am

    "I personally believe the move is possible and feasible and that we will compete at whatever level we are."

    One would hope. But thus far in 2009, we're not competing all that successfully.

    Regarding BSU's budget (does ASU still have a Baptist Student Union?), I would bet it was fairly substantially more than ours when they moved up. I'd also have to believe Marshall's was, as well. That's an intuition, not a statement based on any concrete knowledge. But in both cases, as you mention jonmac, there are several fewer schools in the respective states. In addition, ASU has always been close to bottom-of-the-barrel in athletic funding; only fairly recently have we moved football to the upper echelon of the SoCon and (perhaps, though again I don't know for sure) FCS.

  41. Michael

    September 22, 2009 at 10:45 am


    Let's pretend that the university has already decided for the football team to go 1A, at some undetermined future date obviously after 2012. (Nope, I'm not saying that would be good or bad.) Here's my two cents on what we'd need to do to get ready IF we were determined to move to the FBS:

    1) Keep winning and respect every single opponent. Yes, Midwest, that includes little Elon, Furple, and NC Central. If you start looking past your opponents in the present, you get beat, and it sets you back for the current season, and it may set you back for future seasons because multiplelosses at the FCS level won't impress recruits.

    2) Change the nonconference scheduling philosophy. With 3 non-SoCon (or "nSC") games to fill each year, two of them ought to be against FBS teams. One should be against a high-payout, top level opponent (i.e. the ones already on our future schedules), one should be against a lower-tier FBS opponent… Sun Belt, MAC, WAC (not Boise or Fresno), bottom half of C-USA, bottom third of MWC. Those games would be good annual measuring sticks for the programs readiness. The third game would be pre-scheduled against Montana or McNeese, or maybe a game vs. a CAA team.
    Under these conditions, we'd simply have to deal with the added difficulty of making the playoffs and hope for the best.

    3) Get ourselves on TV more. As a prospective FBS program, 1-2 playoff games a year on ESPN/2 aren't enough. Games broadcast only in SoCon states aren't enough. Neither are games on expensive ESPNU. We would need to be on TV sets in Florida, Texas, Louisiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Alabama, and New Jersey to gain access to recruits.

    4) Work to make the first home game as an FBS team against an ACC foe or Tennessee (because it's so close), even if it means a 3-for-1 deal. The promise of a game like that would help excite fans and donors to pay/give more.

    5) Figure out the most inexpensive women's sport(s) to add (Title IX). My guess is swimming because we don't need any new facilities for that.

    6) Raise ticket prices. Charge more for concessions. Make more maddening requirements for Yosef Club benefits. Gotta raise the money somehow. After all, the payments for luxury suites have to go towards the mortgage on the building before they can be used as a fundraiser.

  42. asu7

    September 22, 2009 at 11:03 am

    I'm in Michael …

    In fact I believe your statements are so exact that they are already in place …

    Look at our BCS (yes they are BCS because they are in BCS conferences) games the next 3 years. Florida, Georgia and VT. Those will be high payout games and ironically are near the moratorium release. I believe Charlie and the gang are preparing for a move right now and when the moratorium is released we will be ready.

    Just my oppinon but I believe it is going to happen. I just can't see why we are buidling what we are building to stay where we are. Take the new rec center. Even the ladies swimming makes sense due to the new rec center. Also we could look at gymnastics. We could even look at mens swimming to save the cost of a more expensive mens sport.

    It is going to happen. We just do not know when officially.

    That is why I will not argue about it because it is going to happen whether we want it to or not.

    I am an APP either way and will support my team either way.

  43. Michael

    September 22, 2009 at 11:13 am

    Having gone through that list of "must do's for going FBS," I feel like leaning a bit more towards staying FCS.

    We do not "need" to go FBS. Going FBS would be extremely exciting, but it would not be without costs. Going FBS would have to be the most dominant fundraising focus of the entire university for several years, and that's during a time of requiring faculty furloughs and aging facilities.

    Think about this way: As it is now, we have an excellent football program with about 28,000 fans visiting for each home game. We're Rock-solid (pun-intended).

    Now compare our circumstances to some of the struggling FBS programs. I'll use Ball State, where I'm in grad school. Despite having a larger enrollment and its best season ever last year (12-0 start), BSU drew over 25,000 one time, which was its only time ever. The very next year, the program is 0-3 with a loss to UNH. BSU does have a slightly bigger budget for the football program. After all, it does have to pay for FBS coaches and 22 more schollies. But that's not where BSU is choosing to focus its greatest fundraising efforts.

    BSU finished a athletic facilities improvement project a few years ago. They're not about to start investing more. ASU shouldn't either. Instead, Ball State has raised over $180 million in the past year alone for academic purposes. It's amazing considering everything: (1) the recession; (2) the Midwest has been declining economically for decades (as opposed to NC's decades-long economic growth); (3) Ball State is located in a Rust Belt, strugling, mostly uneventful city; and (4) BSU is the fourth most-prominent university in the state behind Purdue, IU, and IUPUI and excluding private Notre Dame & Rose Hulman.

    With that $180M, BSU will fund scholarships and offset tuition increases, update academic buildings, and increase starting salaries to offset prospective faculties' hesitation towards living in Muncie. BSU can't do all that and raise massive amounts money for athletics at the same time. Same thing for App State.

    Schools like Ball State and App State can't have it both ways; there's just not the money out there to be highly competitive academically and athletically like a UNC. The good news is that the football program isn't stuck in mediocrity like BSU's is. It's in excellent shape, regardless of subdivision status. Alumni actually want to come back to football games at App. Not so at Ball State. So why not appreciate the blessing of a great program while focusing the major fundraising towards making ASU affordable and appealing to students and faculty over the long haul?

  44. appnaysayer

    September 22, 2009 at 11:37 am

    Don't forget the money we'll need to bail our FBS athletes out of jail, to hire "advisors" to write their papers, to create more online courses for players who don't have the time or inclination for classes, to create "athlete friendly" lists of professors, to purchase new SUVs for the stars to drive, to raise the coach's salary while we cut faculty positions, to hire attorneys to figure out ways around NCAA rules and admission standards, to hire a PR expert to explain how "it's not the coach's fault" when the scandal du jour erupts, and most importantly to have the concessions serve nachos that are actually lukewarm. Oh, the humanity!

  45. Joe

    September 22, 2009 at 11:53 am

    According to you naysayer, we already have all of that (well except the warm nachos!) so why would we have to raise the budget for it?

  46. appnaysayer

    September 22, 2009 at 12:02 pm

    Once again you misquote me, my friend. I have noted that we've had players arrested, that athletes get preferential scheduling, and that coaches don't take enough responsibility for players' behavior. However, going FBS will no doubt ratchet that up a notch or two (all of the above are actual cases at FBS schools) as we become the new Florida State, Clemson, Oklahoma, and Ohio State rolled into one. And, if we want to be politically correct, we'll have to get rid of that white man with a gun we use as a mascot. That just won't do….

  47. clayton

    September 22, 2009 at 12:02 pm

    Naysayer, we're talking going FBS, not FSU.

    Personally, haven't seen a darn thing that gives me the feeling that anybody wants to go FBS bad enough to cut a check.

    Ha, I said darn.

  48. appnaysayer

    September 22, 2009 at 12:07 pm

    Why do I think Clayton grew up watching Beavis and Butthead?

    FSU, MIami, Florida, UNC (with a Miami coach)…all the same. If you compete, you cheat….

  49. clayton

    September 22, 2009 at 12:29 pm

    UNC doesn't compete.

    And no, not as much as you'd think.

  50. asu7

    September 22, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    Maybe we should go down a level or 2 … I bet we don't start out 0 and 2 in D3!


  51. Joe

    September 22, 2009 at 12:32 pm

    So you're saying its already in place, it's just going to get worse if we move to FBS? So, I didn't misquote you at all??

    And because a few programs have had bad pasts, does that necessarily mean we will? Man, Naysayer, you might as well just break all of you glasses in half because they are never half full — always half empty (hell, maybe completely empty!)

    Where are the scandals surrounding BYU, Boise State, TCU, Houston?? One (or a few) bad apples, doesn't make the entire tree rotten..

  52. DRM

    September 22, 2009 at 1:03 pm

    If I didn't know better, I'd think we–actually, you guys–were discussing Abu Ghraib!

  53. DRM

    September 22, 2009 at 1:09 pm

    We have athletic scholarships. We wouldn't be allowed in DIII.

    Speaking of which, that Garcon (spelling?) guy who caught the winning TD pass last night is from Trinity. I'm pretty sure they're DIII.

  54. clayton

    September 22, 2009 at 1:44 pm

    You're thinking of somebody else.

  55. Michael

    September 22, 2009 at 2:05 pm


    You're right: There aren't scandals surrounding those schools you mentioned. Nor are there scandals at places like Ball State, Northwestern, Duke, Virginia, Wake Forest, Boston College, Vanderbilt, Utah, Washington, Indiana (football program, mind you), and many, many others.

    BTW, Boise State serves as good example that proved my point about how money being directed towards athletics can deter from improvement in a university's ability to improve its academic profile. Boise is now as close to being a national powerhouse as a program can be without having won a national title. Yet with all to focus on improving the football stadium, raising money for increased football exposure, etc., Boise State is still a fairly unremarkable commuter school.

    There is a limited number of people who can afford to donate in big numbers to a school like Boise State. It's not a school with seemingly limitless resources for all things academic AND athletics, like UNC or Ohio State.

    App State also has a limited amount of people who'll be able to donate in massive dollar amounts. Without abandoning any emphasis on winning teams, shouldn't the bulk of fundraising focus at App start moving more towards academics?

  56. Ry_ATO

    September 22, 2009 at 3:33 pm

    Garcon went to Mount Union and they are DIII

  57. appnaysayer

    September 22, 2009 at 5:01 pm

    You guys need to read up on Boise State and BYU. Or just watch TV. It was the Boise guy taunting the Oregon RB that led to the "punch." Pure class. Their records are anything but clean. Houston has also been rocked by scandals in its past. Check Virginia's basketball recruiting record for recent criminal activity and the ignoring of same in recruiting. Check Boston College's graduation rate for its athletes, especially football and basketball–not to mention that BC is a small Catholic school and hardly in the same league as the other state institutions mentioned. I notice FSU is conspicuously absent from Michael's list. How's ol' Bobby boy doin' these days? Still out there sleeping in his car, just being an all-around fine example for the youth of America?

    And just as soon as our academics compare with Wake Forest, Vanderbilt, Duke, and Northwestern, I'll be all for joining them in FBS. As for Ball State as a role model…you're kidding, right?

  58. appnaysayer

    September 22, 2009 at 5:09 pm

    On UVA's football troubles:

  59. appfanmidwest

    September 22, 2009 at 5:15 pm

    Few Points:

    1) I think the scheduling of two tough games at the beginning of the season was very smart. I like the fire that is being lit under this team and expect they will go undefeated in the very weak SoCon.

    2) Going to the next level is about analyzing the investment from an income statement perspective.

    -Cost of Goods Sold
    -Operating Expenses
    = Net Income

    Yes, operating expenses increase, but eventually the revenues will increase dramatically. How many ECU fans do you think would travel to App for example. If we could fit them, I bet we could pull 25,000+. What about more corporate sponsorships? TV time? Revenue sharing? Alumni donations. Think about how local businesses will benefit from tourism. Many fans will incorporate a vacation into seing their team play in Boone.

    You have to look at the situation from a mid-long term perspective before automatically saying we need to stay where we are and continue to play the dogs of the SoCon year after year.

    Yes, I understand the infrastructure issues, but that can all be worked out. Think solutions, not problems.

  60. appnaysayer

    September 22, 2009 at 5:23 pm

    Gee, last time I looked we were operating what purports to be a university here, which uh….I think is sort of like you know non-profit. I always thought we should maybe kind of like look at:

    Number of good qualified students admitted
    -those who can't make it due to rigorous standards
    =high quality graduates who contribute to society and a fine reputation for the institution.

    But I guess I've had it wrong all these years. We're here to make money for local businesses, boost tourism, promote athletics and secure a return on alumni investments. As my man Clayton would say, "Darn."

  61. appfanmidwest

    September 22, 2009 at 5:46 pm

    For those who worry about stadium capacity, consider the following FBS schools along with big games played this year. I'd say we could easily compete with this random sampling of FBS schools:

    Toledo= 18,500 (Purdue, Colorado,Ohio State)
    Akron= 30,000 (Penn St, Indiana, Syracuse)
    Bowling Green= 23,724 (Missouri, Boise St)
    Buffalo= 29,013 (Pitt, UTEP, UCF)
    Kent State=29,287 (Boston College, Iowa St)
    Tulsa= 30,000 (Oklahoma, Boise St)
    Tulane= 35,000 (BYU, LSU, UTEP, Army)
    Marshall=38,016 (WVU, Va Tech)
    Fresno St= 41,000 (Wisconsin, Illinois, Cincy)
    Nevada= 32,000 (Notre Dame, Missouri, Boise St)
    Louisiana Tech= 30,500 (Auburn, LSU, Boise St)
    Idaho= 35,117 (Washington, Colorado St, Boise St)
    New Mexico St= 30,343 (Ohio St, UTEP, Boise St)

    Now, look at our stadium size and consider playing NC Central, Presbyterian, UTC, Wofford, etc…and tell me what makes sense and what doesn't make sense???

    Someone has a vision and they will come.

  62. Keith

    September 22, 2009 at 5:49 pm

    naysayer…I'm not saying its right, but welcome to the world of big time college football!

  63. appfanmidwest

    September 22, 2009 at 5:49 pm


    Your point goes without saying. Having national recognition, usually brought about through televised athletics, draws better students. Just look at how things have changed since we beat Michigan. App is now more difficult to get into.

    Don't fool yourself my friend, football revenues fuel some of the best academic programs in the country. Like it or not, that is the way it is and will always be.

    Higher revenues=ability to hire better profs, buy more lab equipment, fund new courses, etc.

  64. appfanmidwest

    September 22, 2009 at 6:00 pm


    I know you probably view the world through Obama's rose colored lenses (as most O-bots do), but funding doesn't fall out of the sky like manna from heaven. It has to come from somewhere.

  65. appnaysayer

    September 22, 2009 at 6:02 pm

    Not this again….Somebody please point appfanmidwest to one of the many posts by the editors showing that football's impact on admissions, student quality, etc.–ESPECIALLY AFTER MICHIGAN–was, if anything, minimal and the continuation of a much longer trend. Geez, do some reading.

    Athletics and academics have separate budgets and the twain do not meet at the university. This is a myth that boosters like to perpetuate. Nothing more.

  66. appnaysayer

    September 22, 2009 at 6:08 pm

    One thing I do know how to do: Check my facts before engaging my keyboard. You should try it.

  67. clayton

    September 23, 2009 at 1:30 am

    I wear aviators.

  68. jonmac

    September 23, 2009 at 4:14 am

    Though I don't like the fact that many football programs have problems with academic violations and criminal acts it must be taken into consideration that the college population as a whole has the very same problems. We make a big deal out of it, and rightfully so, when athletes make poor decisions but we seldom even hear when regular students make the same poor decisions. As a matter of fact, I think athletics should be applauded for keeping the majority of the student athletes in school as long as they do and graduating relatively high percentages. I remember in Freshman Orientation at ASU, sitting in Farthing and the speaker asking us to look at the person on the right of us and on the left of us and telling us that one of those 3 people would leave ASU in the next 3 years(not sure if I have it exactly right, but you should get the point.) It is not really fair to single out football programs when the same can be said of the rest of the student body as well. I really don't think a move to FBS will drastically change the fabric of our student body, athletes included.

  69. appfanmidwest

    September 23, 2009 at 4:27 am

    All this talk of academic integrity and standards above athletics makes me sick. The athletes are the ones being exploited at the benefit of academics and the university as a whole. Yes, they get scholarships, but what the hell are poor athletes supposed to do for spending money when they can't even work a part-time job? Of course, they end up robbing and stealing from time to time. The system has been set up that way.

    Maybe professors and liberal minded students should take care of the athletes that fund their school and worry less about saving Tibet and the Amazon rainforests. Typical liberal hypocrisy at work.

  70. Appnaysayer

    September 23, 2009 at 4:49 am

    Just as soon as you can demonstrate that athletics "funds" academics, I'm in. It's just not true. Except for a handful of big-time athletic programs (Notre Dame, Miami are two), most–including ours– run in the red. They can't even fund themselves, much less anything academic.

    Not the "general population" argument again…Athletes should be doing it better and cleaner than the rest of students because they represent the university publicly. We've been through this before, too. Can we get a "primer" for new posters who think they invented these arguments? Maybe a link that rookies with big ideas are required to read before they can post?

  71. Dan

    September 23, 2009 at 4:57 am

    Not to mention Naysayer that they are getting a free ride afterall. I know everyone likes to belittle that, but it is a pretty hefty benefit. Ask anyone with 30k+ in student loan debt.

  72. appfanmidwest

    September 23, 2009 at 5:07 am

    All I am saying is that college athletes are exploited. They bring more revenue to the university than 90% of all faculty members (grants). I am certainly no suggesting that they not abide by the legal system, but what is a poor athlete supposed to do for spending money?

    Naysayer- I do agree that athletes, because of their training and discipline, should have stronger character traits than the general population. They also have a responsibility to represent the university in a professional manner.

  73. YezzirAppstate

    September 23, 2009 at 5:08 am

    Naysayer you should have gone to USC because you're a bit of a cock.

  74. Dan

    September 23, 2009 at 5:14 am

    midwest – I would hope at least a sizeable portion of student athletes would have parents who could help them out with spending cash. If they're not paying for their kid's schooling, not to mention you don't have them living in the house, which cuts down on the grocery bill, that should free up a few hundred every month for pocket cash. Again, not going to be the case for all, but hopefully more than half.

  75. Joe

    September 23, 2009 at 6:44 am

    No point in arguing with naysayer about this stuff.. he has never been wrong in his life, will not respond to posts that prove him wrong, will not admit his wrongs, and is the all mighty powerful one!!

    Man, it was a pleasure reading all this stuff when Naysayer was away.. looks like I will be taking another break from Appfan.. you know, the site that's dedicated to fans of Appalachian State athletics.. not the site that is dedicated to saying Appalachian State athletics are a big waste of time, money, and any body whoever plays sports should just quit now because they will just end up as horrible citizens!

  76. DRM

    September 23, 2009 at 7:36 am

    "Think solutions, not problems." "Create the vision and they will come."

    Observational musing: Read in isolation, those comments would make me think Midwest an Obama supporter, not the well-right-of-center type some of his other thoughts imply.

    Re: the university's responsibility, or lack thereof, to make money for local businesses, boost tourism, etc. . . . technically, no such responsibility; pragmatically, those are relevant, if secondary, considerations in university decision-making. Generally positive relations with the town are important in many respects, particularly when campus and town are so enmeshed. I have no clue whether this intuition is correct, but I would bet one reason our home games were moved to 3:30 pm several years ago (from much earlier in the afternoon) was that local lodging and food services establishments complained that few out-of-town fans stayed over on Saturday nights after games. (I know the complaints occurred, rather vociferously at times; I don't know how much those complaints impacted the decision to change game times.)

  77. DRM

    September 23, 2009 at 7:45 am

    Mount Union, not Trinity. Mount Union is purple!

  78. Appnaysayer

    September 23, 2009 at 8:19 am

    First, I haven't been "away." Some topics interest me more than others. For example, I take an interest in any topic on which Joe holds forth.

    Second, I always enjoy watching the mental gymnastics to defend the athletics at an academic institution. You can strain and pull all you want, but the simple fact is that universities aren't funded either privately or publicly to play football. We could drop it and all sports tomorrow and the major purpose of the university would not disappear. I'm not suggesting we do that. Athletics add a kind of buzz to an institution, a good feeling when teams do well, but it rarely translates into either a financial or any other sort of real boost for academics. It's a diversion for alumni and students, let's the blow off steam, talk about the good ol' days, etc. But, as the saying goes, "it ain't brain surgery."

  79. jonmac

    September 23, 2009 at 10:30 am

    Maybe we should also require some type of memory test for those who try to throw darts at other posters. I was one of the ones who used the "regular popluation" argument before. I still stand by it. You make some valid points about athletes being in the public eye but ALL students are representatives of the University and should be held to the same minimum requirements regarding behavior and academic integrity and should also be included in statistics about such actions. If an athletic program and an institution are going to be ridiculed for the behavior and academic integrity of athletes then certainly the institution should also be ridiculed for the behavior and academic integrity of students, period. Athletes and athletic programs should not be singled out. The institution, after all, accepted the athletes as students. They are not set apart. Though I don't always agree with you naysayer, I appreciate the conviction of your opinions. It would be nice if you would do the same rather than throw out mildly disguised insults.

  80. DRM

    September 23, 2009 at 10:52 am

    Honor code.

  81. Appnaysayer

    September 23, 2009 at 12:03 pm

    It would be nice if you would do the same rather than throw out mildly disguised insults.

    Well, what fun what that be? Besides, I like to give as good as I get.

    You're right, DRM, an honor code would solve all this. Would that we had a real honor code, instead of the half-baked "Code of Academic Integrity."

    As an aside, I wonder which (if any) so called big time football schools have a serious honor code, by which I mean ONLY one punishment for violation–expulsion? Seems such codes are mainly the province of smaller, dare I say FCS and non-scholarship schools.

  82. DRM

    September 23, 2009 at 12:20 pm

    I don't have any statistics on the matter, but I would bet mostly the province of non-scholarship schools. Exceptions, I assume, would include the service academies.

  83. appnaysayer

    September 23, 2009 at 1:00 pm

    W&M and VMI, maybe Citadel (not sure) also have serious honor codes and at least play D-I. Might be others of that ilk, too, maybe some other schools in the Colonial? My guess is that big-time schools might regard it as a hindrance to recruiting the sort of athletes they need. In other words, student-athletes, not scholar-athletes which, I think, is an important distinction that no one makes, except old school dudes who think that integrity means something.

    Once the ACC let in Miami and VT, along with the earlier admission of FSU, I stopped paying attention to ACC sports because it was clear that a conference with a solid foundation of good academic schools (UNC, Duke, UVA, Wake) had sold out its values for big-time football and big-time TV revenue. Very hard to have real academic values and big-time football.

  84. Joe

    September 23, 2009 at 4:48 pm

    If you, or anybody you know plays any sports at a competitive level, you better stop or you will automatically be seen as a criminal and a detriment to our society. Apparently, anyone who plays college sports is doing illegal activities! So why even try playing as a kid? The highest you can get to is high school. Oh wait, thats right, high schools pay money to have athletics too. Then middle school it is. Nope, they have to support it as well. I guess little league/pop warner is the farthest athletes can go. Who's going to start the lookout for the next 10 year old superstar??? If they are any older, they should be in a detention center!

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